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Key: DACCO-1570
Type: Improvement Improvement
Status: Open Open
Priority: Major Major
Assignee: Linda Oxnard
Reporter: Jaume Ortolà i Font
Votes: 0
Watchers: 0
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DACCO

defect, defection

Created: 09/Aug/06 05:23 AM   Updated: 26/Oct/07 12:26 PM
Component/s: New Entries
Affects Version/s: None
Fix Version/s: None

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 Description  « Hide
defect v.
desertar

defection n.
deserció

deserció n
desertion, defection



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Gill Martin - 09/Aug/06 07:14 AM
I'm not sure about this.

"Defect" usually means to leave so as to go over to the "other side": Nureyev defected to the West. Kim Philby defected to Russia.

There is a Catalan noun "defecció" which may cover this, but I can't find the verb.

"Desertar" seems to mean the same as Engish "desert". When a soldier deserts, he simply leaves his post. He doesn't go over to the other side.


Linda Oxnard - 26/Oct/07 03:00 AM
Assuming nobody has since come up with a Catalan verb for 'defect', here are my suggestions. Please feel free to change or modify.

defect (v)
deixar el país natal i anar-se'n a viure en un país considerat 'enemic' (p.e. 'Rudolf Nureyev defected to the West in 1961')
deixar un partit polític i passar-se a l'altre bàndol (p.e. 'This week five Labour Party members defected to the Conservative Party')


Max Wheeler - 26/Oct/07 03:37 AM
In your definitions, maybe "abandonar" rather than "deixar" to give more of the flavour.

Another idea might be "exiliar-se (d'un pais que no permet viatjar lliurement a l'estranger)", for your first case.


Gill Martin - 26/Oct/07 04:02 AM
Max, "d'un pais que no permet viatjar lliurement a l'estranger" works for Nureyev but not for Philby, Burgess, McLean etc. I suppose it could be argued that they "fled" to avoid the consequences of their actions, rather than defected, but to me that would be putting a bit of pro-British spin on it.

Max Wheeler - 26/Oct/07 10:53 AM
Agreed. "exiliar-se per raons polítiques"? Do you think that "defect" presupposes the cold war? I´d be surprised if, say, an Iranian seeking to live in the US was described as "defecting". Maybe an American going to live in Cuba or North Korea could still be said to be defecting. But a Cuban going to the US? Does a defector have to be someone with some prominent role in the ´system´?

Gill Martin - 26/Oct/07 11:44 AM
"exiliar-se per raons polítiques" I think needs Linda's addition "i anar-se'n a viure en un país considerat 'enemic' " because Americans moving to Canada aren't said to be defecting, or not as a rule. Defecting has to involve going over to the "other side".

We've just been talking about this and think that the primary meaning of defect has to do with political systems and the use of the word for people like dancers, ice hockey players and Cuban boxers is an extension.


David Gimeno i Ayuso - 26/Oct/07 12:26 PM
"Exiliar-se" sempre l'he sentit i usat quan és per raons polítiques i quan es fuig d'un règim repressor. Podríem dir que quan hi ha raons sanitàrio-polítiques (acostuma a ser bo per a la salut sortir-ne). En el nostre cas, l'exili no el relacionem amb jugadors, ballarins o artistes sinó amb escriptors, actors i professors, però crec que el sentit és el mateix.

A més, no té sentit exiliar-se si no es passa a l'altre bàndol, a un país contrari, i que garanteixi la no extradició, o si no s'és contrari al sistema del lloc d'on s'escapa. Quan el motiu de la fugida és per delinqüència comuna, aleshores parlarem d'"evadir-se" i d'"evasió".

Per tant, una persona que se'n vagi dels EUA cap al Canadà, si no és que s'hi en va perquè està en contra de George Bush i considera que els homes de negre el persegueixen, no és correcte dir que s'ha exiliat. Direm que ha emigrat, per exemple.

De totes maneres, algun cop he sentit el terme "transfugar" amb el sentit de canviar de bàndol (de camisa, popularment) o de partit polític i quan no hi intervé un règim opressor. "Està molt mal considerada, en el sistema de partits, la gent que transfuga d'un partit a un altre a meitat d'una legislatura".

Deserció i desertar jo no els faria servir fora d'un àmbit militar, si no és en un sentit molt metafòric.

I acabo. El que sí que hi ha és el verb "confugir" per "acudir a una persona o lloc en busca de refugi". Però és d'un ús molt reduït i no sé fins a quin punt podem considerar-lo relacionat amb res polític, repressiu, de bàndols, espies o guerres, fredes o tebietes.